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Before | After

And that was The (Small) Weekend

I can say I was disappointed, as the dictionary definition of disappointed is:

dis·ap·point·ed (adj.) - Thwarted in hope, desire, or expectation.

While it was exactly what I expected, it didn't live up to my hopes or desires.

Total numbers according to St John was about 150 total. Since the last two years were each over 400, this means that this years was about a third. However, the numbers are actually worse than that. If you take out the miniatures gamers, and the Living gamers, and the CCG and CMG gamers, I doubt very much if the total number of actual roleplayers was over 20. I would expect more likely about 12.

My Paranoia game ran twice, once in the first session with 5 people and once in the last session with 6. However, one of the people in the first session was a GM who wasn't running anything that session, and one of the people in the last session was also a GM who wasn't running anything in that session, so that means only 9 "players" (ie paying players) in my game. I think the most times any of the RPG's ran was 2 or 3 times, and all the other games were 5 player ones.

My freeform didn't run at all. However, it is written, so I'll probably submit it for Unicon this year, that way I don't actually have to panic during the lead up to it.

However, I'm not blaming the organisers for any of this. They did a marvellous job with the time they had. Since half the committee quit in December, and then it took a while to replace the positions, I think they did well in the few months they had to organise it.

Also, they have put a lot of background infrastructure in place so that there shouldn't be these sorts of problems in the future. We can always hope.

On that note they are intending to have a meeting sometime in the next month or so to discuss what went wrong and how to improve it in the future. Travis and I chatted with the committee members a lot about suggestions, since we both have been to so many other conventions and we've seen how a number of other people do it. So, one of the things they are looking at is an on-line rego system, and both myself and Travis told them about AON. Damien, would you mind if I give them your contact details if they want to talk to you about AON (mainly how it works, that sort of thing)? If so, what contact details do you want me to give them?

So, what did I do at The BIG Weekend?

Turned up Friday evening after work to talk to them as they were setting up and doing late rego. Chatted with St John and Michael a bit.

Turned up first session on Saturday morning and ran my first session of The Reunion Mission, making most of the details up as I went along. One clone ended up completely dead about 10 minutes before the end of the game, and everyone else lost at least one clone.

Played board games the rest of the day (mainly Settlers of Catan, Roborally and Ticket To Ride) and went home about halfway through the last session.

Turned up near the end of the first session on Sunday and played more board games for most of the day. Almost had enough players to run Homeward Bound, but didn't quite, so it didn't happen and went home near the end of the last session.

Turned up near the end of the first session on Monday, and having actually remembered to go to a hole in the wall this time, actually had money so bought some Shadowrun books, and was given some Marvel Power Dice Starter boxes. Giant D6 for the win! :)

Then ran my other session of The Reunion Mission, using what I ran the first time as the plot line. This time we ended up on two completely dead, two on their last clone and two on their second last clone.

Then wandered back to the rego hall and helped pack up and clean up, followed by the shortest prize giving in memory (there were about a dozen people there, it didn't take long). After that Travis, St John and I wandered off to Cold Rock for the post con "party". No one else turned up.

Then home.

As for next year, I will submit some games to the next BIG Weekend (I already have a few ideas), whenever that happens to be.

Much as I hate to say it, I actually hope it doesn't run next year. People in Brisbane have gotten so complacent that the con will be running over the Labour Day long weekend, that I think it not running for a year might not be a bad idea, to hopefully wake people up to the fact that it needs volunteers to be on the committee and to run it, other wise it won't run at all.

Perhaps this years completely lack-lustre event will wake people up. I don't know.

I much prefer the southern conventions.


May. 9th, 2006 10:20 am (UTC)

I never thought you were blaming me personally for the con not working but you might want to go back and re-read this thread

Okay. Doing so, I find: "if I decide not to attend or I don't enjoy myself when I do attend, don't blame me for not getting involved". Hence my comment.

Maybe I have the wrong perception of what you've been saying but if you're not blaming roleplayers for not getting involved in organising the con, I don't know what you're doing.

I'm saying that any roleplayers who want a con, should be prepared to accept their responsibility for seeing that happen. That's quite distinct from blaming roleplayers for a convention's failure.

And no, I'm not saying that roleplayers who want a convention are obliged to make it happen. Responsibility doesn't mean you have to act. It's just recognising the consequences for the decision.

I know you've said there were empty positions to fill but how many people even knew that?

IIRC, it was announced at TBW2005 during prize-giving that the committee was going to be short of people. (And at TBW2004, and at TBW2003.) Sure, Ian Hoolihan later said he would give it another go, but it has long been widely known that the convention has been desperately short of organisers. To what lengths should organisers go to ask people to help out again when they have already been asked? Especially since I'm not sure that there was really a committee at all at that time. (Hey, Ian, if you are still reading - precisely who else was on the committee when you resigned?)

As for value-for-money, I don't see that it impacts upon this discussion at all. Brisbane's roleplayers generally have decided they don't want a convention enough to put effort into running it, and hence we had a greatly scaled-back convention. Decision, consequence. That's about all there is to it.

May. 9th, 2006 01:14 pm (UTC)
To answer the question: 1 - me. Having said that, and this is where I will open myself up for critism is that since taking on the role of TBW Coordinator for 2006 I managed to get more and more responsibilities such as:

* Helping run ORK-toberfest 2005
* Trying to get QGG up and running with a new committee
* Manage the accounts for all of those things (Treasurer QGG)
* Try and promote QGG and the events it runs
* Belong to a family with a three year old
* Become heavily involved in a PCYC that was failing
* Run a 6 week Vacation Care Program
* Try and have sort of a gaming social life

So in a nutshell I was truying to do too much, and as a result TBW2006 wasn't on the radar as much as it should. Michael Molyneaux was kind enough to offer to "document the process" and a few people (3) agreed to help out, but there wasn't much movement at the station from my end nor anyone elses.

So as a result TBW2006 came to a grinding halt.

It should also be noted that I was part of the QGG Committee when it was decided that TBW should still run as I thought I had everything under control. I didn't. I could have put it to rest then. Initially TBW was going to be an RPG only con, but as it was pointed out that the core members of QGG are miniatures players, it was soon decided they needed to be involved. Somewhere along the track between me quitting and John Collins taking over, many of the RPG writers (and I know quite a few of them) decided without influence from me that enough was enough. Some expressed their concerns on the QGG Forum (most of which were deleted), while others just stewed, waiting for the e-mail that was never going to come - the one reminding them about deadlines for writing, and submission forms.

So in the end, I can say I have big shoulders. If the people from QGG cannot take much of the responsibility for not either cancelling it or for not communicating with their constituents, then go ahead and blame me for TBW 2006 failing. My only response will be sorry...Real Life got in the way.
May. 10th, 2006 01:32 am (UTC)

Yes, Ian, it's the same old story of one person or a very small group trying to do the work that should be distributed over a large group. Unfortunately, that is the culture that has developed amongst roleplayers generally in Brisbane - not all, obviously, but generally. The only way for this to get better, I believe, is for a lot of Brisbane roleplayers to change their attitude concerning this. It's a change that, if it is to happen, will take a long time. I don't count on the change ever coming.

You make an interesting point about the core of the QGG being miniature players. TBW2006 wasn't too bad for miniature gamers, I understand. For them, it was somewhat smaller than usual due to being organised so late, but there were something like 120 miniature gamers, and they enjoyed themselves. Also, TBW isn't their only event. There are Ork-tober Fest, Times of War and regular Games Night (with organised league play). TBW is significant due to it being the only roleplaying event in Brisbane. (Though, the Cam deserves a shout out here, since I believe they are still running LARPs regularly.) I don't see that the miniature gamers have much reason to worry about TBW falling apart, and it looks like the miniature gamers would probably put tournaments on the Labour Day weekend whatever happens with the roleplaying.

I think this is interesting, because it parallels what happened with roleplaying at Cancon. I attended Cancon 1999, which was one of the best roleplaying conventions I have ever attended. However, roleplaying was almost non-existant for Cancon 2000. The reason was, the Cancon committee was made up of non-roleplayers - mostly miniature gamers - and they were tired of trying to organise a good con for roleplayers. The Phenomenon organisers were the people who actually ran the roleplaying in 1999 (and I think there was no Pheno, as a distinct entity), but it was hard to find a good venue for roleplayers as well as the sheer number of miniature gamers. So, Cancon essentially cut the roleplayers loose to fend for themselves.

The happy ending to the story is that Arcanacon (a mostly roleplaying con) moved to the same weekend, and now the roleplayers go to Arc and most of the miniature gamers go to Cancon, and it's good for pretty much everyone. It shows that if roleplayers want something, they really need to do it for themselves. Working with miniature gamers is great as long as everyone is pulling in the same direction, but we have to remember that miniature gamers aren't looking for quite the same things at roleplayers.

May. 10th, 2006 08:03 am (UTC)

Couldn't agree with the last half more. Miniatures gamers and RPGers are two distinct types of gamers. Sure there is a bit of cross over, but for the most part they do seperate things. This also goes for CCGers and some Collectible Miniatures Players.

From a ConOrg perspective, miniatures games are so much easier to organise. You have a list of atendees of 5 different games and there are no limitations on how many people can play other than how large the venue is. You get prizes for each event and trophies. You set up tables, provide terrain, and get a referee for each game plus some roving refs (the matchup being 1 backup ref for every 20-30 players). You just have people's badges to worry about then, point them in the direction of the game and wa-la. Little to no scheduling is required other than to ensure that you don't go over the numbers players you can have depending on how many tables can fit comfortably in the venue. The cost factor is also down being that you pay the fee once, and you fill it from there.

RPGs however are a little different, but that's just dependnant on how you look at it. Too much time I feel has been spent on catering to gamers needs at the expense of the organisers sanity. I personally don't know how John does it (especially with the flack he cops each year with people who don't appear to get what they want - mainlky because they registered a fews prior to the event). The solution to the problem is "first in first served" and uphold that. I personally like the way some US conventions do it in that they offer events on a set schedule, you buy either event specific tickets or generic tickets. GenCon is a good example. But I'm getting a little off topic. RPGs currently require rooms to be booked in advance, have scheduling issues, and are very resource heavy (i.e. you could fit 15 LARPers, or 25-30 CCG players in the same room for a much cheaper per head cost than an RPG which has a top of 6 players and a GM). The only upside is that RPG prize support usually comes from the manufacturers and at no cost to the event as opposed to minis who usually have to pay for the support (even if it is at 50-45% off).

So what is the solution for RPGers? Do we go to a system where RPGers pay more per session in order to provide for the venue? Do we go to a venue with open areas like the days of old? Do we do a system where GMs have the option at the start of having their games in open air or in private rooms, where its one cost for open air gaming, and a bit more for the rooms.

The later is what I would prefer, but I would be happy to hear what others have to say.

As a side note - Wouldn't it be nice to have this chat in a more open setting and include more opinions rather than inside of someone's BLOG??? If anyone can suggest such a place, let me know.
May. 10th, 2006 10:35 am (UTC)

Yes, miniatures tournaments are very easy to organise. I've occasionally encountered roleplayers who advocated ditching miniatures (and boardgames, and CCGs) in order to allow organisers to concentrate on getting roleplaying right. However, generally this doesn't really free up the organisers to any significant degree, because miniatures tournaments are so easy to organise. The miniatures gamers basically just show up, contribute to the rent and amuse themselves for three days. The only exception is that sometimes, a venue suitable for roleplayers may run out of space for miniature gaming (usually only if the tournament is very large).

So RPG con orgs might as well let miniature gamers come along as well (and CCGers, to a somewhat lesser extent). It doesn't work the other way around, though, both because roleplayers are so much harder to organise for and because so many good miniatures venues aren't good for roleplayers.

RPG organisational issues... I know exactly how John handles the scheduling. Back in the day, I taught him how to do that. (Frankly, though, I don't think he picked up everything I knew, and by now he has probably developed some techniques I didn't use.)

Down in Melbourne, where most of the cons I attend these days are held, scheduling is done on a sort of "first come, first serve" basis. However, conditions are more favourable for such a process. They have many more players attending, longer conventions with more sessions, and online registration that gives immediate feedback concerning scheduling. These factors make it much more likely that a session for an RPG will fill, without an organiser swapping things around to fit people in. They also force players who sign up on the day to talk to GMs themselves, to work out when they can play.

For smaller conventions without such a sophisticated prereg system, I still favour having an organiser schedule RPGs. Without it, you just wind up with two players in session A and two players in session B for a four-player game far too often. However, it also needs to be clear to roleplayers that the earlier they register, the better their chances of being scheduled into the games they want to play. If your entry arrives two days before the event, you get what the organiser puts you into, and say, "Thank you very much, sir." Maybe orgs should even refuse to pre-schedule anyone whose entry arrives less than a week before the con, and those people can wait in line with on-the-day registrations. On-the-day rego, of course, is completely first-come, first-serve.

You know, I did turn up and shoot John a "what the hell?" concerning my scheduling last year. When he told me what was what, though, I approved of his decisions. It was the best he could have done, given the restrictions (like my attending a wedding in the middle of the con).

When it comes to cost, I think many Brisbane gamers have come to expect far too small a fee for conventions. I think this is because they compare it to their home games, which are free, and so expect to pay something quite nominal for basically the same sort of game. The reasons for this expectation are an issue I won't address now, but the expectation is really quite unreasonable. The fee which is charged is what is required to cover the costs of the convention, and that's that. Take it or leave it (and I don't mind if you leave it), just don't whine about it.

I don't mind if costs go up to cover the expenses of RPG rooms. In fact, I mind so little that I pay said higher costs a couple of times each year. (TBW2006 was $23 for six sessons, max. Arc was $5 per session. Conquest was $6 per session. IIRC.) If some people want to cut costs by roleplaying in open areas, I don't mind, but I'd rather avoid it myself. I suppose you could do the hybrid format, if the organisers don't mind the extra complication.

As for a more inclusive place to have this conversation, we could take it to aus_gamers. That's what the community is for, after all. It's still LJ, but at least it is a part of LJ devoted to this.

May. 10th, 2006 03:12 pm (UTC)
Ok, I don't want to keep going round and round with you on this one, but I do want to point out that you've taken my comment out of context. When I said go back and reread the thread, I was referring to the idea that you were blaming roleplayers, not blaming me. When I used the term me it was merely illustrative. It was probably a clumsy way of putting it, but as I've said before I didn't think you were blaming me personally. I do still think you're blaming roleplayers for the as you put it `scaled-back' con, you're just using different words. As for value for money that was an illustration of why people complain even though they don't put their hand up to help, they expect value for money so if they don't get it they complain. Hence roleplayers don't help to organise a con, but if it's not organised properly, or they don't even get informed about it, they complain.

I can see we're not going to get anywhere with this one. As far as I can see you seem to think I'm making up the fact that I know roleplayers who would have been involved but didn't know, weren't asked, or were actively turned off the con by the organisers. Announcing something at the end of a con really isn't enough, I was at the award ceremony, and there really weren't that many people there, besides how many people know what they're doing in a year's time and are going to remember to contact people about getting involved. There also are many people who aren't on the qgg boards, don't check them regularly, and aren't on the con email lists (I'm not even on the email lists despite having attended on and off for many years). I'm not lying when I say people didn't know about it, and worse to my mind is that people who did know about it were fobbed off by the organisers. Even when I asked what was going on with the convention they didn't say we need more committee members, they said, wait and see, the con is going ahead everything is fine, not we're in over our heads, we don't have an event coordinator, we need volunteers, please help. Just because you happen to be in the inner circle and are well informed and get answers to your questions doesn't mean that everyone does.
May. 11th, 2006 03:24 am (UTC)

Ok, I don't want to keep going round and round with you on this one, but I do want to point out that you've taken my comment out of context. [...] It was probably a clumsy way of putting it

Fair enough. I won't disagree with you here. I'm just saying that given how it was put (clumsily, as you say), I think it's obvious how we got to my response.

I do still think you're blaming roleplayers for the as you put it `scaled-back' con, you're just using different words.

In which case, I'm blaming myself equally, aren't I? Because I'm a roleplayer in Brisbane. But I don't think I've done anything wrong. I feel no guilt over this. Something doesn't add up with that interpretation, does it?

I was at the award ceremony, and there really weren't that many people there

Which illustrates my point. If roleplayers are so interested in seeing this happen, why are there so few at the awards ceremony? Functional, long-term conventions require a community to support them. Communities have strong response to feedback. When a community is strong, events go well, more people are inspired to get involved, the community gets stronger. When a community is weak, events are disappointing, people turn away, the community gets weaker. The organisers of TBW have done a good job the last few years, but there hasn't been a sense of community behind the event, thus preventing positive feedback from occuring. Thus, a boom/bust cycle in Brisbane conventions which can be traced all the way back to the 80s.

There also are many people who aren't on the qgg boards, don't check them regularly, and aren't on the con email lists

So, precisely how do these people expect to be informed?

Just because you happen to be in the inner circle and are well informed and get answers to your questions doesn't mean that everyone does.

There's an inner circle? I'm in it? Could have fooled me.

Before TBW2006, I hadn't seen John Collins since the TBW2005 Cold Rock party after TBW2005. The only email contact I had with him was when I received submission forms and responded to them. The only phone contact was when he chased me up for prize lists (and he only caught me, like, five days before the con). I didn't know who Michael Molywhatever was until John introduced me at the con this year. I still don't know who the other organisers this year were. (There's a couple more listed on the website.)

And yet I knew they needed more committee members. I dunno, maybe I just pay attention to what I'm told. When I had no contact by late December, my thought was, "Hooly's finally done the right thing for himself and walked away, like he has said he would, and nobody's running the show." When February came around and there was no news, I told people who asked me, "The event is still officially on, but I wouldn't count on it happening. Someone needs to sign up to do the job if it is going to happen." When I got an email in March from John, I knew he had finally given in and taken the job that nobody else would do. There was never really more to know than that.

So if I'm so informed, and the only member of the organising committee I could have even recognised wasn't on the committee until March, why doesn't anybody else know anything?

May. 11th, 2006 07:55 am (UTC)
So, precisely how do these people expect to be informed?

E-Mails. Other forums. Mailing Lists. Flyers in stores. Posters in stores. Advertising in standard print media. Convention booklets. School Newsletters. Television and readio advertising. Banners at the venue prior to the event. A functional website that has all the info in it and looks good (OK, that sound's bitchy). By getting stores to support the event so they talk up the event - which requires stores to be spoken to to about the event and kept appraised of what's going on so that they can inform their customers.

Take your pick! How many of these were done?

1) Website became functional 2 weeks prior to first cut-off.
2) One e-mail was sent out about the con 1 week prior to cut off and that was only John advising people that he was disappointed that not many people had registered with them.

I will spell it out:

C-O-M-M-U-N-I-C-A-T-I-O-N. There simply wasn't any. That's how you get people to attend a con. That's how you raise the numbers by over 40% each year for 3 years running. It's not rocket science. Its not through getting people to come aboard the committee (that comes if you follow most of which I've mentioned above). I just through using every communication tool you have to inform as many people about the event as you can.
May. 11th, 2006 09:20 am (UTC)

We are talking about two different things here, Ian. I was asking how people expect to be informed that nobody had volunteered to fill positions on the organisational committee.

Now, we are talking about informing people who are not on email lists and do not visit forums. Physical mail, flyers in stores and advertising in print media are all very expensive when you consider the complete lack of monetary return expected from simply recruiting an organiser. Television and radio advertising is just beyond the pale expense-wise when you are just trying to recruit an organiser. Getting around to visit stores is time-consuming, and just won't happen when you don't have organisers, because the whole point is that nobody willing to commit time to doing that sort of thing has been found.

And obviously doing all that work to have a successful convention does not cause people to come aboard the committee. If that was true, you wouldn't have been a committee of one when you stood down. A successful convention plus a strong community might be enough, but I don't think we have a strong roleplaying community in Brisbane.

BTW, some of the southern cons gathered some data about advertising, and found that convention booklets had such a low response rate that printing them was costing considerably more than the revenue generated through bringing attendees to the cons. That's why some southern cons don't distribute convention booklets to stores at all any more. Conquest distributes an A3-size sheet folded into a flyer, I think. I think Arc might be doing nothing more than a single poster to each store. I don't know whether they've tried TV, radio or other print advertising, but I'm pretty sure they have the greatest success with online advertising.

May. 11th, 2006 11:20 am (UTC)
Sure. So many topics in the post - its easy to get confused. I think as far as the RPG community goes, you might be surprised, and I'm sure most of the RPG community who have been very suipportive of TBW, BrisCon etc in the past might take offence.

I would also suggest that the findings conducted were a lot more specific that what you have mentioned. I for one know that one of the larger complaints many RPGers that I spoke to in 2005 said that they really wanted a Con Book. The other thing to mention is that if done right (by selling advertising space), the booklet will cost nothing and in actual fact can make money. I know the TBW2002 and TBW 2003 booklets did. I can't recall the TBW2004 booklet though.

Online advertising is good, but you have to know what you are looking for and where. The net is a big place. Take this blog for example. How many people are reading this?
May. 11th, 2006 02:35 pm (UTC)
Travis, I agree with what Ian has said about communication and it applies not only to getting people to attend but getting people involved. You need to look beyond just the people who are already involved and access other email lists, put a notice up in game shops, ask around at roleplaying groups. As strange as it sounds there are people who aren't regularly on the internet or don't have enough time to be subscribed to every roleplaying list. A flyer of some sort is a really good idea because that way you can get to roleplaying groups and gamers who wander through comic book stores. That way you can get more people involved. And as a side note, convention booklets are very important, most of the roleplayers I've talked to want booklets, including me. If that's too expensive there should be flyers or posters at the very least.

There weren't that many people at the award ceremony because there weren't that many people at the con and the award ceremony was on Sunday evening. Some people probably had work to prepare for the next day, or were just tired from being at the con all weekend. Besides what is said at the end of a con is not always what happens. Before last year's con got under way, there was follow up about what was going on and things had indeed changed from what was stated at the end of the con the year before. You're not seriously suggesting that roleplayers aren't putting enough effort in because they didn't attend an awards ceremony to get information on next years con are you? And what about the people who didn't attend last years con, how are they supposed to know and how are new people supposed to get involved?

Also, how exactly are people supposed to know there are QGG boards? I only know because someone else told me about them, and I had to track down the con website because it was down for a while and had then moved. And when I say I'm not on the con email list, that's not because I don't want to be, it's because despite providing my email address I haven't been sent any email regarding the con. If you're not in the inner circle, you certainly have more luck getting answers out of people than I did. I didn't get any answers to my questions other than wait and see. And good on you for paying attention to what you're told, but it's a bit hard to pay attention when you're not actually told anything.
May. 11th, 2006 02:48 pm (UTC)
Oh, and on the matter of cost, a few photocopied notices asking if anyone wants to be involved in organising The Big Weekend, put in a few comic shops and given to a few gaming groups are not going to break the bank and are going to get the message through to a lot of gamers who wouldn't otherwise know.
May. 12th, 2006 01:49 am (UTC)

I didn't say that southern conventions weren't producing con booklets. In at least some cases, con booklets have been produced but have been distributed only at the convention itself. That way the people who really want the con booklet get them, and the convention isn't paying to produce ten times as many con booklets as are actually used. Also, make no mistake, no matter what roleplayers say they want, they generally don't use booklets to enter. IIRC, when those cons looked at their data, they found that response rate from booklets was below one in ten and falling with each passing year.

Also, remember that I was an organiser back in the darker days of 1996-1998. In 1996 (after Briscon that year), the President of the Briscon Association stood down. It was a long, long time before anybody could be found to take over. I personally visited stores and the meetings of Briscon-affiliated clubs as part of the campaign to inform people that a new President was required for the con to go ahead. Nobody wanted to be involved. Eventually John White agreed to do the job - the same John White whose parents own Napoleon's Military Bookshop. He got the job done - barely - but the committee had to endure complaints about how a person associated with a store should not be running the convention. And before that, in 1995, the NonCon organisers widely advertised that their convention was too much work for only two people to hold together, and if nobody volunteered, there would be no NonCon 96. Nobody volunteered. There was no NonCon 96.

Don't forget that the major problem with recruiting through stores is not cost, but time. Somebody has to visit each store. These days, if I was the only person willing to do that, it would probably take me a couple of months to get it done. I just don't have the time to visit stores. Precisely who was supposed to do this, considering that we now know that after Ian resigned, there was nobody at all on the convention committee?

It comes back to the fact that nobody was in charge, and nobody was willing to take charge. It's not enough to be willing to help out if somebody collars you. Somebody needs to be proactive enough to say, "Hey, I think this convention needs my help. How do I get on the committee?" (Heck, if somebody isn't proactive enough to do that, should that person be in charge of a convention at all? Yes, I am saying that anybody who does not directly ask a question has not put enough effort into finding the answer.) The roleplaying community in Brisbane just isn't getting this.

Okay, there is the issue of questions put to the forum, but I can't judge what happened there either way. Michael and John were quite offended at how things went, and I can see questions asked and answered in that forum now, and that's all I know.

May. 16th, 2006 04:57 am (UTC)
Obviously you think that what I have said is not the truth and you will not be dissuaded no matter what I say. I think the issues I have raised are important and need to be dealt with before anything will change. So I'm going to have to disagree with you and leave it there.

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